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June 01, 2005

On Murder

I received a comment from John that, since it references something that goes back a bit, some of you might have missed. I'd like to respond to John, of course, with a question.

John said:

Quote: "Till's relatives claim he merely said hello or some other mundane nicety to a white woman, while others say he was much more "fresh" with her than that. Regardless,...."

Seems you suffer from the same reasoning problem of which you accuse others. You attmept to down play certain facts and focus upon others.

The facts surounding what Till said or didn't say way heaviest in this case. It is unfotunate when anyone looses a life, but the facts that we cannot discern (although, one of his relatives who was an eyewitness stated that he was forward with the girl)would make the clear line of how one view's the consequences and the actions of the killers.

In the end, one must assume one of two views.
Either he was an incocent 14 year old, or he was a male youth with a bit too much moxy.

If it is the former, it is a trajedy.
If it is the latter, the case is simply the extreme consequences of a young male not heeding the age-old adage that one never covets another man's wife.

The reason why we don't disrespect woman in our society, is not because we think it is intrinsically not good, it is because we know that at some point a husband or other male will take offence. That does not mean that we simply fear getting yelled at or having a nose broken, it is that we ultimately fear being killed. For in the judgment of most men, a man is justified in killing for honor, especially in offensives against his wife, regardless of what society may or may not place in it's social contracts.

Tell me, John. Let's assume the latter. Given the dynamics of two people briefly crossing paths on a sidewalk, exactly what could 14 year old Mr. Till have said that would justify this:

ChicagoDefender050506.jpg

Posted by Mike Gold at June 1, 2005 04:48 PM

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Comments

Mike, I probably disagree with you 95% of the time but this very much falls into the other 5%. Well done, sir.

Been years since I saw a photo of what they did to Mr. Till and it still hits me like a suckerpunch. What people must have thought in 1955 is beyond me.

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 1, 2005 07:13 PM

What kind of a rock does a guy like this John crawl out from under? There's a difference in what happened to Emmett Till based upon whether or not he was forward with a woman? You are somehow allowed to visciously slaughter a person (an immature young boy for that matter) because a man feels his honor has been offended? You ever hear of maybe starting with a reprimand to the kid for rude behavior? Or maybe speaking to his legal guardians if that doesn't work? Call me crazy, but that seems like the kind of rational response that reasonable adults are supposed to have in a civilized society. Unless of course you are a knuckle-dragging troglodyte racist. God help this moron if he does have a wife; probably got her by clubbing her in the head and dragging her home.

Posted by: Jim Chadwick at June 1, 2005 07:57 PM

And keep in mind, while there is nothing--NOTHING--that he could have said that would in any way have justified this, the actual word he used was supposed to have been..."baby".

Baby.

Only 5 years before I was born and calling someone baby could get you beaten to death. Unbelievable.

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 1, 2005 08:09 PM

I admit that politically I'm probably of opposite mind to Mr. Gold, but we actually tend to agree more than we disagree. Once again, we agree, Mike.

Bill,

You've undoubtedly heard of the cross-burnings in Durham recently. Trust me, as a black child growing up in the racially charged south, it's something you never quite get used to. But it's highly unlikely that a black boy would be so bold as to call a white girl "baby".

Posted by: eclark1849 at June 1, 2005 10:13 PM

Mike:

I have a hard time taking this fellow John seriously to begin with since he can't bleeping spell. I mean, we all mistype occasionally, but cripes.

If a fellow can't put letters together to form words, and can't put words together to form sentences, why do we think he can put impulses together to form cogent thoughts requiring our attention?

There is no time in the world when murder is the appropriate response for even a lewd comment. I can't speak to Till's murder; I (amazingly) had never heard of the case until you'd reprinted the cover of the newspaper and Harry Broertjes had forwarded it my way. If the comment was innocent, the act is heinous and despicable. But even if it was the kind of crap that kids give girls, fat guys, nerds, or Michael Jackson, that's no call to kill.

We just watched KINGDOM OF HEAVEN this past weekend, and once more I was amazed at the violence and destruction that can be waged all in the name of one group's beliefs over another. Whether it's belief in the Christian God, the chances of the Boston Red Sox, a propensity to talk too much, having the wrong color skin, eyes, or hair, voting for Nader, or driving a Hummer, we really need to stop forming groups in order to persecute and commit violent acts.

Okay, so I pick on people who can't write or spell. But at least I don't tie them to my bumper, drag them ten miles, then set them on fire.

Cripes.

Posted by: Mike Flynn at June 1, 2005 11:09 PM

If the only reason we "don't disrespect women" is because we "ultimately fear being killed", then we live in a morally bankrupt society. And a man is neither legally nor morally justified in "killing for honor".

"Honorable" men did not murder Emmett Till. An offended husband did not challenge him to a duel at dawn. A gang of thugs who assumed they could act with impunity, without fear of retribution, hauled him off in the night; then they tortured him before killing him. Where, exactly, is the "honor" in that?

Posted by: Rick Oliver at June 2, 2005 04:56 PM

Mike, I think you overstate your case a little here. I think there are things that Emmitt *could* have said that would probably result in a brutal beating. "I know where you live, bitch, and when your man is gone I'm going to rape your white ass" for instance.

However, it's pretty clear that he said no such thing. But it's still possible for him to have said something that directly lead to his death.

Posted by: Londo at June 3, 2005 09:13 AM

My understanding is that all Emmett Till did was whistle. And it's possible he may not even have whistled at the woman. The possibility has been raised that he may have whistled his appreciation of a move he'd just witnessed in the checker's game taking place in that store.

But whatever his motivation for whistling, _nothing_ could justify his being brutally beaten to death.

If there is a God, then the men who did this are spending eternity experiencing the pain and suffering Emmett Till felt in his last days on Earth.

Only magnified three-fold.

The same should apply to anyone who assisted in covering up for them and otherwise helping them get away with it, knowing full well they were guilty.

Rick


Posted by: Rick Keating at June 3, 2005 02:09 PM

Is it just me these days, or does anyone else feel that history's drain has backed up in unpleasant ways? We've got Deep Throat and Emmet Till's murder on the fron page again, and whether or not one supports the current president and war (I don't) it's hard for me not to see Nixon and Vietnam redux.

Maybe these are just my limited filters, and I don't mean to be flip, but I swear, it's like the timestream puked or something....

Posted by: Jon at June 4, 2005 10:22 PM

My family is originally from the south and I have heard stories from my grandfather of innocent moments that were misconstrued as being offensive or disresepctful to a white person that resulted in all manner of cruelty being heaped upon him and his brothers with one such incident resulting in his older brother almost getting beat to death.

Posted by: Derek! at June 4, 2005 10:39 PM

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 1, 2005 08:09 PM

Trust me, as a black child growing up in the racially charged south, it's something you never quite get used to. But it's highly unlikely that a black boy would be so bold as to call a white girl "baby".

But Till didn't grow up in the SOuth -- he was from Chicago, visiting relatives.

OTOH, as a Chicago native who has observed the city of his birth from the outside most of his life, i would think it would be unlikely a black man from Chciago would have, either, Chicago being described by quite a few people as one of the most, if not the most, racist cities in the US.

Posted by: mike weber at June 5, 2005 11:46 PM

Derek--just to clarify, it wasn't me who said he grew up as a black child. I'm so white I'm practically transparent

Posted by: Bill Mulligan at June 11, 2005 12:00 AM

Heh. Actaully, Bill, that was Mike who attributed eclark's quote to you. For pretty much the same reason you just thought it was Derek. The 'posted by' line is at the bottom of the post, not the top.

Just thought I'd take this rare occasion to spread clarity, instead of my usual confusion... *g*

Posted by: Patrick Calloway at June 11, 2005 10:05 AM

Heh. Actaully, Bill, that was Mike who attributed eclark's quote to you. For pretty much the same reason you just thought it was Derek. The 'posted by' line is at the bottom of the post, not the top.

Just thought I'd take this rare occasion to spread clarity, instead of my usual confusion... *g*

Posted by: Patrick Calloway at June 11, 2005 10:05 AM

Ooopsie. You mean i been gettint wrong all this time? Arrrgh!

Posted by: mike weber at June 21, 2005 05:47 AM

No matter the case of what the fourteen year old Emmit Till actually had done. Whether it be a whilstle hug or whatever.. Nothing could justify his death. Neither Honor or Respect could back up the wrong doing of two ignorant men who were obviously racist.. And it doesnt matter what citie the boy grew up in. He was warned of the extreme racism that took place in Mississippi. I am a 16 year old boy that is mixed, black father, and white mother, who happens to live among the ignorance of south Ms. that stands today. The evil that was in these people that comitted the crime is unimaginable and will be justified one glad day. In other note there is nothing that this boy (who is only 14 years old need I remind you) could have done to be punished by death. The child could maybe be questioned and maybe an asswhooping but definately not death. Especially to the extent of having an ear cut off, beaten, eyes gouged out, and more.

Sorry for spelling errors or misuse of grammar. Im only 16.

Posted by: Steven Fortner at September 24, 2006 01:58 AM

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